An Interview with ELN Commander Antonio Garcia

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August 27, 2000

An Interview with ELN Commander Antonio García

by Liam Craig-Best

Guerrilla leader Antonio García is the military commander of the National Liberation Army (ELN), Colombia's second-largest guerrilla movement. An engineer by profession, the 44 year-old García joined the ELN when he was nineteen. Recently in Geneva, the ELN and Colombian Government held talks to discuss the setting up of a demilitarized zone for the ELN--similar to the one that the FARC guerrilla movement has in southern Colombia. The zone would be used to host a "National Convention" where all sectors of Colombian society could talk openly about their concerns whilst trying to work out a solution to the country's problems. In this interview, Antonio García discusses the ELN, Plan Colombia, the drug trade, the paramilitaries and the National Convention.
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The National Liberation Army(ELN)

Q. Who does the ELN represent?

A. The ELN is an organization of Colombians who feel excluded by the state, the economic system, and the social injustices they create. We are an organization born of the people and we fight to build a political and economic order in Colombia where political exclusion no longer exists and where problems can be solved through the participation of the majority of the population. We represent the excluded--the majority of Colombians.

Q. In what areas of Colombia do the ELN operate?

A. The ELN operates in all of the three major mountain ranges of Colombia. We also have a strong presence in the north east of the country and in the plains of Casanare and Arauca. In the eastern plains and Amazonian regions we have neither political nor organizational presence. At the moment the ELN has 43 fronts in rural areas, 10 urban fronts and 22 mobile companies that perform operations in various parts of the country.

Our fronts tend to be grouped together depending on their geographical position. For example the fronts in the departments of Arauca, Casanare and Boyaca are grouped together. There is another group made up of

fronts based in the north-eastern departments of Norte de Santander, Santander and Cesar, and another made up of fronts from the south of Bolivar department and north east of Antioquia department. Also in Antioquia, around the city of Medellin, we have an important grouping. We also have important groupings in south-western Colombia, the departments of Cauca, Narino and Valle, and in the north around the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta and the Guajira peninsula. All the ELN fronts are located close to main roads or the more important areas of natural resources--the bases of Colombia's economic infrastructure.

Q. In the areas where you operate how much control do you have, do you function similarly to a local government?

A. The regions in which we operate are totally neglected in terms of social, economic and political justice. They are basically stateless regions and this lack of authority is filled by the guerrillas who try to become an instrument to help the people to organise and to resolve for themselves the needs that they have. Although the ELN is a military force that confronts the establishment and its military forces, we are also a force that contributes to the organisation of the society in which we operate. We try to develop the organisational processes within society because this is the only way that we can guarantee stability for the future. Only an organised society can guarantee its future and if a society is not organized then any authority can impose their criteria. In the areas where the ELN operates, we are in constant communication with the surrounding communities; we try to coexist with the communities, we support them and help them to resolve their social, health, educational and economic needs.

Q. How do you finance yourselves?

A. The vast majority of our members are working people; teachers, peasants, housewives, intellectuals, factory workers, professionals, etc. Therefore we have a great number of wage-earning people and most of the ELN's social and political work is financed by donations from these people. Those members who are part of the professional guerrilla, the people in arms, also develop productive activities in the countryside. They grow crops for example and this contributes greatly to the ELN's finances. There are also voluntary contributions made by people who share our ideals. The fourth way we finance ourselves we call a tax policy. Depending on the wealth of a person or company they have to pay a tax. This is because the ELN has social responsibilities in the areas we control such as looking after the needs of the communities in terms of health, education and building roads for example.

The government collects taxes but does not invest them in the most deprived areas so we make the wealthy people pay tax on their profits. However, we take care that companies do not suffer and never charge

them more than 10% of their profits. In situations where companies fail in their obligations to pay tax we carry out an "economic retention" to make them pay the tax--taking into account that "their" wealth was produced in our soil and ought to be shared with the total of the population. We call this activity "humanitarian solidarity," where the rich have to share because their profits are the result of a social activity and we understand that work is above all a social activity. But I want to reiterate that the retention of people is only a fraction of our economic base because more than half of the ELN's members are wage-earners who support the organisation financially.

Q. When you say "retention" you are talking about kidnapping?

A. Here we need to make a clarification. On the one hand there is hostage taking, a crime forbidden by international human rights law, on the other we have kidnapping, and separate to these two we have retention. A hostage is someone I capture and use as a shield for my protection; this is practiced by the Colombian Army when they capture peasants and put them in front of the troops to avoid being attacked by the guerrillas. The ELN doesn't do that. Secondly we don't kidnap, because kidnapping is the negation of someone's freedom against their wishes and where the kidnapper hides his identity, denies his own responsibility and has no intention of resolving the problems of the community.

Retention for economic reasons has a different goal; its aim is to try to benefit society and the person who makes the retention shows his face--he or she takes responsibility for his or her actions. There are more than 40,000 people in Colombia's jails. They are prisoners of whom more than 20% have not been prosecuted under the law. Many of them are in jail without any reason. They have to pay for their meals and for their accommodation. They have been kidnapped because they have been deprived of their freedom without reason. In addition to this the government charges great amounts for bail so we can say that the Colombian government profits from kidnappings in a massive way.

Q. Do the guerrillas of the ELN receive any salary?

A. None of them are paid, not even the urban guerrillas. Our guerrillas only receive their equipment, things like food, clothes, weapons, etc., but they do not receive any money.

Q. What if they have families who need economic help?

A. In the urban field there are members whose budget must be covered because they have to pay expenses like rent, etc. They are very busy in their political activities so we pay their expenses. They have a budget that allows them to perform their activities, but we do not consider it a salary. Our policy is to provide a subsidy to support the families of those who have not got a regular job and are l00% involved with the ELN. The rest of the families, except in special circumstances, do not receive economic support.

Plan Colombia

Q. What is your opinion of Plan Colombia?

A. The main objective of the Plan is to give the Colombian Army the necessary infrastructure to develop its counter-insurgency war. The idea is to create specially trained army battalions with helicopter gun-ships that

can be deployed at very short notice. Plan Colombia disguises the battalions as 'anti-drugs,' but their true purpose is in the counter-insurgency campaign. Plan Colombia basically justifies further U.S. intervention by pretending it is a war on drugs, but the truth is that it is an anti-guerrilla war. The policy is designed for the south of the country [large guerrilla presence] while in the north [large paramilitary presence] there is no policy to fight drugs. This policy allows them more flexibility--they are able to support initiatives and operations carried out by the paramilitaries with money earned from the drugs trade.

Q. Where did Plan Colombia come from, who thought it up, designed it?

A. Plan Colombia was thought up in English and written in English. It is impossible that Plan Colombia originated in Colombia or was written in Colombia. The Colombian Congress asked their government for a copy of the Plan in Spanish and found that one didn't exist; this was three months after the first draft of the Plan was produced in the United States. Plan Colombia was never discussed in the Colombian Congress or by the Colombian people. It was devised in the U.S. to be applied in Colombia.

Q. Are you sure that when the Colombian Congress asked for a copy of the Plan in Spanish, it didn't exist?

A. Absolutely. You can ask anyone. There are three versions of Plan Colombia; one in English; another in Spanish that is different from the one in English; and another produced especially for Europe that is designed to obtain the money to be invested in social development. The version of Plan Colombia that was written for Europe was designed to make Europe pay for the peace while the U.S. paid for the war.

Q. When the U.S. military aid arrives in Colombia do you think that it will hurt the guerrillas?

A. The aim of Plan Colombia is to provide the army with a capacity for rapid operations; fast movements to surround sites and deny the guerrillas the chance to retreat and regroup. The U.S. wants to strike at the main fronts of the guerrilla movements.

Q. Do you think that the U.S. is considering an invasion of Colombia?

A. We believe that the order for direct military action was given long ago. For many years the U.S. has been intervening in Colombia. There are more than 360 U.S. military experts in Colombia. There are troops on standby in Ecuador, Peru, Brazil and Venezuela. We are not talking about something that is going to happen in the future, we are talking about something that is already taking place. The U.S. is sending an average of three high-ranking military officers to Colombia every week. It seems that they come to supervise the use of the aid that they are giving.

Q. I believe that the ELN has no contact with the U.S. government. If they made an approach would you be interested in talking to them, is there any sort of U.S. involvement that you would welcome?

A. You are right, we have no contact with them whatsoever. The best contribution that the U.S. can make is not to interfere in our internal conflict. They must allow the Colombian people to resolve their own conflicts without their intervention. However, we have always been open to listen to and talk with any person or government with good will and especially with those interested in supporting the positive development of Colombian society.

The Drug Trade

Q. What relationship does the ELN have with the drugs business?

A. We have a strong policy of demarcation with regards to the trafficking of drugs. We have no relationship with the sowing, cultivation, production, trade, or export of products related to drugs. We have no connection either with the drugs or the money that it produces.

Q. Do you charge the traffickers taxes?

A. No.

Q. Why do you tax other businesses but not the drugs business?

A. This is a particular situation: if we get involved with the drug traffickers at any stage of the process it would provide evidence to those who accuse us of earning money from drugs. As it stands there is no evidence. We are very clear that we don't profit from the drugs trade. We believe some resources can be channelled towards some communities if someone wants to donate money to build schools, health centres, etc. However, we say that in the case of donations from drug traffickers the donations have to go directly to the communities and not through the ELN.

Q. Is the Colombian Military involved in drug trafficking?

A. To be able to export the large amounts of cocaine that the traffickers are sending to the U.S., they have to rely on the complicity of the authorities, which they gain through bribes. This is clear and has been

proven. People in Colombia used to say that the planes that travel to the U.S. are so big that they carry not only the tonnes of cocaine but also, out front, in the nose of the plane, a cheque for $20 million. The profits on these loads are between $100 million and $120 million, so there is easily enough money to buy the entrance of the drugs into the U.S. market.

It is very well known that some sectors of the armed forces--and numerous politicians--have links with the drugs trade. We should check the finances of all the Colombian generals to verify if the salaries that they earn are high enough to enable them to live in the manner they do. We understand that even the high salaries that some of them have are not sufficient to attain the living standards that they enjoy. We believe there should be close scrutiny of the highest ranks of the military to see where their wealth comes from. There have always been connections between drug traffickers and the armed forces.

It is also well known that the paramilitaries were founded by the drug traffickers and are allowed to operate freely in the north of Colombia. Neither the CIA, nor the DEA, nor the Colombian Armed Forces are fighting the paramilitaries in these areas of high coca production even though everybody knows very well where they are. In these places paramilitary helicopters come to the army garrisons to collect the cocaine to be transported to Antioquia and then exported. In the areas to the south of Bolivar and Catatumbo the helicopters that come to collect the coca come from the military bases. Therefore you can conclude that they are not just aware of the drug trafficking business but are directly involved in it along with their paramilitary friends.

Q. Do you think that the United States has any interest in finding a solution to the drugs problem in Colombia or are they only using drugs as an excuse to become more involved in the internal conflict?

A. The U.S. has never spoken clearly about Colombia's drug problem. They have never had a coherent policy about this problem. What we can say is that in certain regions they have dealt partially with the drug problem whilst pursuing their own non-drugs related interests. In many situations they have used the issue to reach a particular objective--like in Nicaragua with the Iran-Contra affair. But also in the cases of Afghanistan, Burma, Bolivia, Laos and Thailand where they have actively

supported drug trafficking operations. We believe that U.S. drugs policies are repressive and bankrupt.

We have different priorities to the U.S. government regarding the world--we believe that there must be democratic and participatory global policies instead of the unilateral policies of imposition that the U.S. is using. Their policy on drugs is based firstly on obstructing the production of cocaine and secondly on deterring the cocaine from arriving in the U.S. Both of these policies are repressive.

U.S. attempts at a preventative cure to the problem are always half-hearted. They should try to implement a real policy against the domestic consumption of drugs because if there is more consumption, there is more production. We don't know what they want with regards to drugs. Do they want to end drug production and consumption? Do they want to divert the drug problem away from the U.S.? We don't know and the world doesn't know either. Everyone remembers that there have been various cases when the U.S. has sided with the drug traffickers to obtain certain results and objectives.

Q. What do you think is the solution to the drugs problem in Colombia?

A. We believe that a solution to the problem in Colombia must be developed within the framework of a worldwide solution. An international agreement must be developed to resolve this problem and the whole international community must get involved. There must be effective and workable drug rehabilitation policies and steps taken to limit the profitability of the drugs business. Modern society is more open to learning and improvement in areas relating to health. If there is investment in both education policies and agrarian alternatives we may see a solution emerge. Remember that it is the lack of profits in other commodities which makes peasants plant coca.

Many people support the idea of decriminalisation because the outlawing of drugs increases their profitability. All that has to follow, they argue, are policies of rehabilitation, education, prevention and the offering of alternatives to the poor countries where the coca is grown. Whether this is a viable solution to the crisis in Colombia and other Latin American countries is a difficult question. What's certain is that any solution must be a multilateral one, involving the whole international community, because it cannot be achieved by one country alone.

The Paramilitaries

Q. How much control do you think that the Colombian government has over a) the armed forces and b) the paramilitaries?

A. Firstly it should be noted that while governments come and go, state institutions and their personnel, like the army, remain in place for years regardless of the government. In Colombia many institutions are historically linked to a policy of protection of the state and in Colombia

"protection of the state" means the protection of privileges--protection of the political and economic benefits enjoyed by the elite. Even if we had a government that was opposed to this reality, state institutions like the army would continue in their role as protectors of privilege. So in one way the government cannot really control the army. Thus the state, as well as the army itself, is used to protect privilege and every case of disagreement with or protest against this situation gets a response of repression, murder, persecution, as state policy.

The Colombian State started the disappearances, the torture, the political assassinations, all of this is documented and it is an old practice. What is new is that the paramilitaries are now used to implement this repression and we can see an enormous identity of common interest between state policy and the paramilitary project. The important thing about the paramilitaries is that they carry out operations to fulfil the objectives of the state--destroying the opposition--whilst allowing the state to deny responsibility. Basically the state is not involved because the paramilitaries do what the state wants to be done--plausible deniability.

Paramilitarism exists in Colombia not as a structure but as a modus operandi to carry out undercover operations on behalf of the state. The modus operandi is applied by both the army and the private death squads of Carlos Castaño [national paramilitary commander] and as a result people are afraid to speak out in Colombia--and the government chooses to do nothing about it.
The common people in Colombia know that the massacres are committed by the paramilitaries with the help of the armed forces. People understand that the paramilitaries are killing people and that their only way is to slaughter unarmed people because their record in combat with the guerrillas, of guerrillas captured, of weapons recovered, etc. doesn't exist. Their record only talks about massacres and torture and that is all.

The ELN has undertaken massive and risky operations in many parts of Colombia but we have never acted with the deliberate intention to kill unarmed people. There have been casualties but it is never the same as with the paramilitaries. All they talk about is murder, disappearances, cleansing, massacres, and all they do is attack civilians.

Q. Does the ELN have any strategy to protect civilians from the paramilitaries?

A. In all of the areas where we operate where there is also a paramilitary presence we directly combat them. They come to these areas and kill the people who don't agree with the government--they come with the clear intention of attacking people who are not part of the armed conflict. We help the population to organize and defend themselves because they have the legitimate right to take up arms to defend themselves. The problem is that the massacres take place in areas where the Colombian Army operates and has a strong presence. Massacres don't take place in areas that the guerrillas control, they are done in the areas where the armed forces, and to a lesser extent the police, can protect the perpetrators.

Q. Do you think that the U.S. Government has any relationship with the paramilitaries?

A. We know that the CIA has a long history of destabilising countries and that in the past they have had links with extreme right-wing death squads throughout Latin America. We also know that the U.S. is not

interested in allowing any country to search for its own destiny beyond what it perceives to be its best interests. And it is interesting that it is the very same people who work for Colombia's destiny--and not in the U.S. interest--who are targeted by the paramilitaries. People like trade unionists, human rights workers, investigative journalists and progressive teachers and academics.

In the case of Colombia there is a long history of interference. They have many military experts in Colombia and have invested heavily in intelligence infrastructure. Also the DEA has been posing an additional problem because it is so hard to tell whether they are against or in favour of the drug traffickers and paramilitaries. We know that they have infiltrated many agents within the cartels, but as with the CIA agents, sometimes the cover becomes so deep that they forget whose side they are on. The main paramilitary and drug trafficker in all of Colombia is Carlos Castaño, but nothing happens to him; nobody fights him. In addition, he is the only drug trafficker that supports the supposedly "anti-narcotics" Plan Colombia. Who can understand that?

Q. How do you view the paramilitaries' role in society, do you consider them to be a part of society?

A. In so far as they are part of the establishment they are part of society because they participate in the exclusion mechanisms applied by the government--massacres, killings, persecutions of all government opponents. Even if they do not say so, they are from the government, they do what the government does: they exclude, persecute, harass and kill the people. All of this corresponds with state policy and even though they deny the links, the paramilitaries certainly don't say they are against the government or the state.

The National Convention

Q. What progress has been made on the issue of the "demilitarised zone," is Pastrana going to withdraw government forces?

A. We have a preliminary general agreement with the government regarding one area containing the municipalities of San Pablo and Yondo. This area is about 5,000 square kilometres in size. In the region there is only one permanent military installation that protects the Ecopetrol infrastructure in Casabe. This military presence is going to remain but in the rest of the area the army and police will not have a presence. We have also decided to allow the civil authorities, mayor, prosecutor, people's ombudsman, etc. to remain in the area. Lastly we have agreed on the creation of two commissions--an international one to guarantee the safety of the areas' inhabitants and a verification commission made up of representatives of both the ELN and the government. We must now formalise and sign each of the above agreements and proceed to a more formal contract.

Q. Do you expect that to happen?

A. In the wake of the demonstrations organised by the army and paramilitaries in opposition to the demilitarised zone there is a certain amount of opposition to the agreements--but this is manufactured opposition not representative of the people. What we must take into account is that the demonstrations were generated by threats and

pressure on the local community. People were told that they would be forced to leave the area if they did not take part and others were even threatened with death. There were also people who participated in the demonstrations who came from other regions because of their vested interest in the drugs business in the area. There are areas that produce narcotics in both Simiti and Santa Rosa, which are in the proposed zone. If the international verification comes about they won't be able to carry on with their business and as the paramilitaries are deeply involved in this business the whole idea is very uncomfortable for them.

The same can be said of the military, who have financial interests in the drugs business and were also very active in the organisation of the demonstrations. Another problem is that rumors have been spread that when we move into the zone the ELN will take revenge on those responsible for the massacres that the paramilitaries have perpetrated in the region. We will not respond with any type of retaliation and although some are saying we will abuse the area we are not the people who commit abuses--abuses are the work of the paramilitaries. Nobody can say that the ELN is committing massacres. It is the paramilitaries, alongside the army and police, who are responsible for the massacres and they are accusing us of planning to commit the crimes that they themselves perpetrate. They say that when we take over we will implement the policies of the state, massacres, etc. and it is absurd--the ELN does not, and will never, share such policies because we do not believe in a policy of murder.

Q. Which sectors of Colombian society have expressed an interest in participating in the National Convention?

A. We have been talking with various sectors of the Colombian population for two years now. Industrialists, political organizations, trade unions. We have also have discussed it with intellectuals, academics, universities, state sector representatives, regional authorities, parliamentary bodies, students and church groups. There is a lot of interest in the National Convention because it comes from the idea that the solution to the conflict must be a collective one, that we must unite our efforts to create a national consensus in favour of change. This can then be transformed into a political and social force capable of transforming society. What we must agree on is what sort of country we want. There are many people who agree with this, so our proposal for a wide democratic form of participation involving all sectors of society has been well received.

Q. Do you contemplate the participation of the Colombian refugee community?

A. The internally displaced community must have a direct participation in the convention. External refugees will also be invited and we hope they will come and play a part. We believe that all Colombians with relevant experience of the situation must participate.

Q. Have you invited the FARC and EPL guerrilla movements and do they want to come?

A. The National Convention is an open process. Obviously we want the participation of all revolutionary forces. It is logical that they are going to come because the convention is an effort that we are undertaking for the benefit of Colombia and we hope that all the different revolutionary forces of the country will come.

Q. Is there any sector of Colombian society who will not be welcome? For example, are the paramilitaries going to be represented?

A. It is our understanding that the paramilitaries are against society because they are killing innocent and unarmed people. They are killing people because people have ideals. An army that acts against unarmed people has no ethics. Because their sole intention is to kill and their policy is a policy of scorched earth, and because they are an army without any ethical principles, they are necessarily an enemy of society and would not be welcome.

Q. What types of international representation do you want at the National Convention?

A. Above all we need international accompaniment that will serve to produce confidence and security in the process. Accompaniment will facilitate initiatives that allow all of society to move towards democracy, human rights and participation in the search for solutions. In this sense we believe that international participation is important. International delegates and their experiences can also help to strengthen the search for a democratic solution and the well being of the country.

Q. Would you consider a cease-fire during the National Convention?

A. This issue must be a bilateral consideration of the two parties that are in the battlefield. We can't issue a cease-fire order if the other side doesn't also commit themselves. The cease-fire must be bilateral with specific objectives that are agreed to at the dialog table. It could be contemplated in the future but at the present it has yet to be discussed.

Q. What do you want as a result of the National Convention?

A. The expectations of the ELN and other national forces is that the National Convention can help to create a consensus; a national identity; a country able to identify itself; a country that can say, "these are the changes that Colombia needs." A transition toward a democratic society with social justice, well-being--without impunity, without human rights violations--where people can move forward the search for different systems of government. Where other social forces can participate in the exercise of government, not just the political parties, but the academic sectors, intellectuals, the cultural and art communities, the social organizations, the unions. A pluralist government not just controlled by the unilateralists of politics, but with the participation of all sectors within society. We hope that the National Convention and the consensus and cooperation that it creates will show us the path that the country must follow in the search for a transition of society.

We also need to examine what type of government a transitional society needs and we of course need to discuss and debate exactly what sort of society Colombia wants. One thing must be clear and that is that any

project that changes society must include the idea that we need an economic model that serves the people and society, not the other way around--an issue that will take a lot of time and discussion. The economy Colombia now has can be called irresponsible, we believe that the economy must humanise, not dehumanise, the population. We want an economy interested in the well-being and promotion of human beings, the respect of their dignity. Only a human economy can make a viable democratic society, the contrary means conflict. This is what we want from the National Convention: a consensus creation, a new economy and an identification of the initial methods and bases from which a transitional society is going to be constructed.

Q. Lastly, do you have any heroes?

A. I think that many people identify themselves with historic personages, but for me there is not one in particular. In Colombia there are many revolutionaries who have fallen and have come to act as symbols of heroism for this country. We can say for example, people like Simon Bolivar, Rafael Uribe Uribe [a liberal leader killed early in the 20th century], Jorge Eliecer Gaitan [a populist liberal presidential candidate assassinated in 1948], Jacobo Arenas [leader of the FARC guerrilla movement and Patriotic Union presidential candidate], Manuel Vasquez Castaño [a founding member of the ELN], Manuel Pérez [a Spanish priest who led the ELN for some years until his death in 1998], Camilo Torres [a revolutionary priest who joined the ELN and was killed in combat], Jaime Bateman [leader of the M-19 guerrilla movement, killed in an airplane "accident" in 1983], Manuel Cepeda [Senator representing both the Patriotic Union and the Communist Party, assassinated in 1994] , Ernesto Rojas [leader of the EPL guerrilla movement, assassinated by the intelligence services in 1987], Alvaro Fayad [leader of the M-19 guerrilla movement killed in 1986], Carlos Pizarro [leader of the M-19 guerrilla movement and later a presidential candidate, assassinated in 1990].

In particular, for us, Bolivar means a great deal. He was a man of many battles who defeated the most powerful empire of his time and fought for the freedom of the people. For us in the ELN, personages like Bolivar, Ernesto "Che" Guevara and Camilo Torres are the symbols and aspirations of liberty. But not only for Colombians, for the whole world as well.

Note: Although this interview covers various issues of interest the ELN web sites at www.eln-voces.com (in Spanish) and www.web.net/eln/ (in English) contain more in depth information on a wider variety of subjects relating to Colombia and the ELN's struggle.

Liam Craig-Best is a free-lance journalist who interviewed Antonio García in Madrid, Spain, in May 2000.

This article originally appeared in Colombia Report, an online journal that was published by the Information Network of the Americas (INOTA).